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Post by flatline on Nov 28, 2014 19:59:34 GMT -8
I know lots of people who use pencils or mechanical pencils, but only one other person that I've met in the flesh who even owns a lead holder.
It seems to me that lead holders are superior to wooden pencils in just about every way, including price if you're using high quality pencils since quality leads are between $0.50 and $1 while quality pencils are $1 - $2.
Why are lead holders virtually unknown? Are they considered a relic of less sophisticated age or have some stigma that keeps them buried in the back of office supply stores by the T-squares and compasses?
What am I missing?
--flatline
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Post by chthulhu on Nov 29, 2014 7:46:57 GMT -8
Lead holders are used quite a lot by artists and designers. For drafting and technical drawing, thin-lead pencils have the advantage for fine, consistent lines, but they lack expression. A lead holder or a woodcase pencil allow for more variation and shading (vs. hatching). For writing, though, one generally wants a consistent line without frequent sharpening, so ... Not to mention the incredible waste of graphite when using any thick-lead pencil for writing or drafting. Take a look at this page: leadholder.com/index-lead.htmlRead the second section of the page, titled "The Thick Lead Problem: Lead Utilization in Thick Lead Pencils." |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 29, 2014 8:57:45 GMT -8
I agree with chthulhu.
As a side note I would like to share the following. There's a stationary/art store here in town that is constantly restocking their lead holders supply. They usually have Staedtler Mars Technico 780's, the current versions (2) of the Faber-Castell 9400, Aristo FMS's (basically rebranded Koh-I-Noor Select-O-Matic II 5614 pencils), and sometimes Caran d'Ache Fixpencils. My guess is that people who buy them are mostly students, engineers, architects, artists and designers. It is good to know that there's still some demand for them.
Also, I often work on projects that take a few working sessions, each taking several hours in a row. The only way I can stand it is because I use wooden pencils. Even the smoothest knurling grip becomes very uncomfortable and light plastic pencils start to feel heavy after a few consecutive hours of work. To me, for prolonged use there's nothing better than a good assortment of high quality wooden drafting pencils. Though I invariably use 2.0 mm lead holders on the initial stages of my projects and thin lead mechanical pencils on the finishing process, mostly to add detail. This just reflects my experience, others may fell differently.
R.
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Post by flatline on Nov 29, 2014 12:55:21 GMT -8
His diagram exaggerates how much lead is wasted, but I understand the issue.
When writing with a thick lead, I find that by rotating the pencil or lead holder as I'm writing, I can keep a sharp edge against the paper without much trouble until the width of the point exceeds about 1mm. At that point, I either need to write larger or I need to sharpen the lead. So for me the correct size of the red triangle in his diagram would be about half the height of the sharpened region of the lead. Still wasteful, but not as wasteful as his diagram currently indicates.
With the 1mm point-width in mind, I think that the 0.9mm lead width is ideal from a perspective of getting the most writing out of a particular length of lead.
But I think that efficient use of lead is beside the point since lots of people still use wooden pencils and they share the exact same problem (even worse, I should think, since pencil sharpeners are less precise than lead pointers).
--flatline
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Post by flatline on Nov 29, 2014 12:57:37 GMT -8
I agree with chthulhu. As a side note I would like to share the following. There's a stationary/art store here in town that is constantly restocking their lead holders supply. They usually have St aedtler Mars Technico 780's, the current versions (2) of the Faber-Castell 9400, Aristo FMS's (basically rebranded Koh-I-Noor Select-O-Matic II 5614 pencils), and sometimes Caran d'Ache Fixpencils. My guess is that people who buy them are mostly students, engineers, architects and artists. It is good to know that there's still some demand for them. Also, I often work on projects that take a few working sessions, each taking several hours in a row. The only way I can stand it is because I use wooden pencils. Even the smoothest knurling grip becomes very uncomfortable and light plastic pencils start to feel heavy after a few consecutive hours of work. To me, for prolonged use there's nothing better than a good assortment of high quality wooden drafting pencils. Though I invariably use 2.0 mm lead holders on the initial stages of my projects and thin lead mechanical pencils on the finishing process, mostly to add detail. This just reflects my experience, others may fell differently. R. If weight is an issue, then pencils certainly are advantageous over lead holders. My lightest lead holder is about twice the weight of a wooden pencil and the pencil gets lighter as it gets shorter... --flatline |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 29, 2014 13:39:13 GMT -8
If weight is an issue, then pencils certainly are advantageous over lead holders. My lightest lead holder is about twice the weight of a wooden pencil and the pencil gets lighter as it gets shorter... --flatline Yes, that's it! If you ever get to use lead holders or thin lead mps, preferably with knurled metal grips, for a couple of 4 hour working sessions you will know what I mean. If you ever get to do that please let us know how it feels. On countless occasions, I had to spend over 12 hours a day drawing. I also agree with you when you say that lead holders are superior to wooden pencils in just about every way. It just happens that sometimes they're not the most practical tool to have a job done. Also, wooden pencils have a broader range of lead hardnesses that cover all drawing needs. Still, I would hardly trade my finest lead holders for anything else ...I think!  R. |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 29, 2014 14:05:17 GMT -8
With the 1mm point-width in mind, I think that the 0.9mm lead width is ideal from a perspective of getting the most writing out of a particular length of lead. --flatline You have a point there ...No pun intended!  R. |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 29, 2014 14:28:44 GMT -8
With the 1mm point-width in mind, I think that the 0.9mm lead width is ideal from a perspective of getting the most writing out of a particular length of lead. --flatline As for me, the largest thin lead size I use on my drawings is 0.5mm. Above that is 2.0 mm leads and wooden pencils. I rarely use 0.7 and never 0.9. Though I like both sizes for writing, doodling and sketching. 1.1, 1.3 and specially 1.4 mm are also very nice. I really enjoy my Faber-Castell Emotion (1.4 mm) I think I've been using it for almost 15 years, definitely my favorite pencil for sketching. R. |
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Post by flatline on Nov 29, 2014 16:03:29 GMT -8
Okay, I had a chance to think through the math involved in how much of the lead is actually used for writing.
Here's the simplistic take on things (should underestimate the amount of lead used, but still be in the ballpark).
1. If I sharpen when my point is about 1mm across, then I'm using a cone's worth of lead that is 1mm in diameter.
2. The volume of a cone is 1/3rd the volume of the enclosing cylinder.
3. The enclosing cylinder is 1mm in diameter and is 1/4th the volume of the enclosing 2mm cylinder of the lead itself
4. Therefore, the amount of lead that actually gets used writing rather than sharpened away uselessly is 1/12th of the total lead.
It only gets worse if you sharpen more often. For instance, if you sharpen when the point is 0.5mm across, then the amount of lead actually used for writing is 1/48th of the total lead.
If you're writing with a 0.9mm mechanical pencil, you're using the whole cylinder, so you should expect to burn through your lead slower than a pencil or lead holder since they're sharpened to points (read: cones). You'd have to let your pencil point get 1.5mm across in order to write with about the same amount of lead. Similarly, sharpen at .87mm to use an amount of lead equivalent to a .7mm mechanical pencil and .5mm to be equivalent to a 0.3mm mechanical pencil.
Good thing lead isn't expensive.
--flatline
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Post by chthulhu on Nov 29, 2014 16:20:43 GMT -8
Bear in mind that the diagram was in regards to drafting, where a 1 mm line width would be unacceptable much of the time. :-)
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Post by flatline on Nov 29, 2014 16:34:25 GMT -8
Bear in mind that the diagram was in regards to drafting, where a 1 mm line width would be unacceptable much of the time. :-) True, but when I say sharpen when the point is 1mm across, the line I get on the page is still very narrow since I'm writing with the edge of the point, not the entire cross section. The line on the page looks pretty similar to what I get when using a 0.5mm mechanical pencil. Even so, the point that we throw away more lead than we use is most definitely true as long as we're sharpening to a conical point. --flatline |
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Post by flatline on Nov 29, 2014 18:49:13 GMT -8
If weight is an issue, then pencils certainly are advantageous over lead holders. My lightest lead holder is about twice the weight of a wooden pencil and the pencil gets lighter as it gets shorter... --flatline Yes, that's it! If you ever get to use lead holders or thin lead mps, preferably with knurled metal grips, for a couple of 4 hour working sessions you will know what I mean. If you ever get to do that please let us know how it feels. On countless occasions, I had to spend over 12 hours a day drawing. I understand that applying varying amounts of pressure is an important part of technique when drawing, but when writing, there is no value to applying pressure beyond what is needed to get a sufficiently dark line. I find that I have the most endurance when I use a bottom heavy pencil of moderate weight since the pencil itself provides enough pressure to get a dark line and I just have to provide the lateral pressure to move the tip across the paper. Since the amount of downward pressure required increases with the amount of lead in contact with the paper, it is much easier to to find 0.3mm and 0.5mm drafting pencils weighted and balanced optimally for this to work than 0.9mm pencils or 2mm lead holders. My favorite lead holder, the Staedtler Mars Technico, can do this if I keep the lead soft and/or sharp, but doing so does not lend itself well to long immersive writing sessions (sharpening is a distraction and not sharpening is an even greater distraction since it forces me to write larger than I like). The Alvin "Tech" DA is the only lead holder I own that can perform well in this fashion with hard enough lead that I can go a long time between sharpening my lead. But for long writing sessions, none of my lead holders compare well to my drafting pencils (or fountain pens or sharpies). Now, to be fair, it's very rare that I spend more than 60 minutes uninterrupted writing longhand. Meeting notes are mostly terse sentence fragments written in bursts and my working notes might only generate a page or two every hour, so endurance isn't generally a factor. It's only when I'm writing in my journal that I can start writing without pause or interruption, but that generally doesn't last more than 30 minutes at a time. I've been trying to use wooden pencils for that for the last several weeks, but the downward pressure required makes me noticeably tired by the time I'm done. If I use a fountain pen or a drafting pencil, I don't notice any fatigue at all. I can only imagine that writing with anything for a 4 hour session would be very tiring. I only have that kind of focus when I'm coding at the computer (I often lose track of time and people have to remind me to eat or attend meetings...). --flatline |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 30, 2014 6:52:04 GMT -8
...I often lose track of time and people have to remind me to eat or attend meetings. --flatline I know what you mean!  R. |
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Post by rr4u on Nov 30, 2014 7:36:00 GMT -8
Bear in mind that the diagram was in regards to drafting, where a 1 mm line width would be unacceptable much of the time. :-) 0.9/1.0 mm leads are the same, some brands, like r Otring, at one point used 1.0 (the same applies to 0.35/0.3) and they were commonly used for drafting. Currently thicker drafting thin lead mechanical pencils are all 0.9.  ...And, lead hardness is also a factor to consider. There's definitely more waste on softer leads. For instance, from 6B's to the top of the scale, 10B, the cores are thicker. They run from 3.0 mm to 4.0 mm, I think. R.
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